Liverpool’s Treble is just as distinguished as Man Utd’s in 1999 and City’s now…

The Mailbox insists that Liverpool’s Treble in 1984 merits the same status as United’s and City’s. Also: a postcard from Istanbul as UEFA f*** over fans again.

Get your views in to [email protected]…

Postcard from Istanbul
As a long time reader and a very rare mailbox writer I felt the need to write in about UEFAs ineptitude at the final.

Having been a season ticket holder at both Maine Road and the Etihad, this was my first opportunity to attend a Champions League final. I ordered my flights without even having tickets and got mega lucky with a friend having 2 spares they sold me at cost (Steve you are a legend). I was so excited to see my team for the first time in the pinnacle event of European club football.

Getting to Istanbul? No problem flights were a dream. Got to Istanbul 5 hours before kickoff then it all fell apart.

Firstly, the shuttle busses weren’t well signposted from the airport, when we realised where they were and set off I was giddy with anticipation before we hit traffic about 2.5 miles from the stadium. People were walking past the shuttle bus in a constant stream so after not moving for 30 minutes we all got off and walked it.

The Inter fans en route were sound, hats off to them, everyone enjoying the leisurely stroll along gravel by the side of the motorway and open sewers while buying bottles of water for 5 euro from the locals who lined the streets.

3 hours after landing we arrive too late for the fan park and by that point, the beer taps were turned off. Got into the stadium parched (I am not paying 5 euro for a tiny bottle of water) and went to the concession stand. An hour to buy a sandwich for 10 euro and a cup of Pepsi for 5 euro. Class all round

Game? Brilliant, nervy but I’m glad I was there to witness history and then the shambles to get out of the stadium. 2 hours in a rammed shuttle before even getting out of the car park, no air con, sweltering, packed in like sardines. No one had a clue what was going on. Seems like all the buses, coaches, shuttle buses and taxis were all trying to take a 2 lane track to get out of the car park. Some people nearly missing their flights home.

UEFA, you messed it up last year in Paris and haven’t learned your lessons. You have a duty of care to people paying upwards of 700 Euro for a seat. Sort yourselves out.

Im glad I went, but I won’t be going again unless it’s at Wembley (it is next year) or in Munich, at stadiums where the local police are able and capable of handling the transport of fans in and out of the area securely and safely.

Thanks for reading and I hope we meet another English team in the final at Wembley next year! Let’s face it, we can handle a Manchester Derby there during a train strike without major incident. UEFA could learn a lesson there.
Tom, Manchester

Liverpool won the Treble too
With Manchester City’s treble being called “artificial”, I’d like to dive into trebles of seasons past. No, not the cup treble of 2001, which has been labelled as ‘plastic’ by any non-Liverpool fans ever since that bonkers night against Alaves, but another triumph by Liverpool in 1984. Top flight league title, check, European Cup, check, domestic cup, check. This achievement is often dismissed/forgotten (I’ve not heard it mentioned once this season) because the domestic cup was of the League variety, rather than the FA and its History. However, this was a coveted trophy at the time, and long before Premier League teams started to treat it as an inconvenience. To be fair, it didn’t have the best start either, but that’s a story for another time.

Anyway, back to 1984 and Liverpool beat Everton in the replay after the final ended 0-0. This is the same Everton who would lift the FA Cup later that year and take the First Division title the following season. In comparison, Manchester United beat a poor Newcastle in the 1999 FA Cup final. Newcastle finished 13th that season, 33 points behind the champions. On a side note I was surprised to discover 2nd and 3rd replays were actually a thing back then, with Liverpool playing Fulham three times in the third round. Poor Arsene would implode.

On the European stage the routes to the final were completely different, but United played only two more games than Liverpool under the revised format (11 including the final, vs 9). Fans defending Liverpool/Forest/Villa or the knockout tournament of old will point out that although these teams played fewer games they were all against the current league champions. However, out of the six teams faced by Manchester United, Inter were the only one not to qualify as champions. As mentioned in a recent Mailbox, United came through (via four draws) a ‘group of death’ featuring Bayern and Barcelona. Liverpool on the other hand beat Odense, Bilbao, Benfica and Bucharest by a combined score of 15-2. Although a bit apples to oranges, only the most biased would deny United had the tougher journey to the final. Speaking of which, That Night in Barcelona will live long in the memory for different reasons (hi Clive), but playing your opponent in their own stadium is next level. No wonder Bruce’s legs went.
DF (conveniently omitting Liverpool played 3rd tier Walsall in the semi, as opposed to reigning league champs Arsenal).

The miracle of Istanbul
Watching the build up to the CL final on Saturday, I cast my mind back to thinking when there was last such a perceived mismatch in the showpiece event, and landed on Milan v Liverpool at the same venue in 2005. That AC side was phenomenal, whereas Liverpool were so average at the time! Traore, Kewell, Baros etc. Miracle they even got to the final, great advert for Rafa’s organisational abilities with a very limited squad. But to win it after being 3-0 down at halftime! Just imagine if Inter had done that on Saturday, puts it into perspective what an incredible night that was in 2005. Gerrard, wow.

Fair play to Inter though, in it right to the end and not far off causing another huge upset. Shows you what good organisation and a lot of heart can achieve. Congrats to City as well, one of history’s great teams.
Simon E, LFC

Read more: Ranking all 31 Champions League finals after Man City win a non-classic encounter

Winning is everything
The City/anti-City debate is just going around in circles now. It’s a frustrating read because City fans keep pretending not to understand what the obvious issues with their success are, and much of the anti-City rhetoric reeks of double standards, hypocrisy and faux outrage.

I have sympathy for the City fans (well, those who predate the club’s takeover or have family/Manchester ties) because they deserve to enjoy their club’s success, regardless of the mechanisms that have led to it. 99% of fans of other clubs would be exactly the same in their shoes. And if you watched the last World Cup then you can’t have a pop at City fans without being a hypocrite, as you were quite happy to look the other way when it suited you to do so.

The simple truth is that football does funny things to us all. As a Liverpool fan I looked for every angle possible to defend Luis Suarez when he played for us. Well, I finally saw the light late in the day and was glad to see the back of him, but as someone who prides himself on his ability to think critically, it took a long time for the penny to drop.

And if we support high profile clubs, then there will inevitably be things that we happily explain away or ignore if they pertain to our club, and condemn them when they happen to another.

The real, actual villains here are the caretakers of the game that have sold their souls (and the soul of football) for money. Football is more of a soap opera these days than a sport, and everyone who contributes to the various debates buys into it. FFP is a flawed, arbitrary construct that pays lip service to the concept of fair competition, and all clubs that it applies to look for ways of working around it. It will take years for the charges against City to get processed, and then years more for the appeal (if applicable), and does anyone really think that City will be punished in a meaningful way if they are ultimately declared guilty?

Me, I find City’s dominance boring, and their brand of football functional and uninspirational, but if I was a City fan, I’d be loving every minute, and enjoy being the anti-heroes. That’s why Chelsea fans loved Mourinho, even if he cheated all the time and the football was an appalling spectacle because he won shit. And when Newcastle become the new City (in about three years’ time if Pep is off in two), they’ll ignore all the flack that comes their way too.

Winning is everything.
Matthew (obviously the one exception here is Liverpool who never do anything wrong)

Qatar would take United down City’s bad road
If you’ve played video games with any sort of commitment you’ll know how satisfying it feels to complete a game. Whatever that entails – completing all the levels, finishing the story, getting the high score – it’s an achievement and you’ve every right to feel good about it and even brag about it if you’re inclined. However, occasionally the game is really hard to complete and rather than taking the time to build up your ability you might lower the difficulty to ‘easy’ or activate a cheat code you found on the internet. Yet you know you haven’t played the game the way it was intended and your achievement – though technically the same – wasn’t earnt in the same way. It still feels good and you still might brag to your mates about it (without mentioning the cheating obviously) but it doesn’t feel the same, its diminished.

This is not what I want for my club. A nation state is currently trying to buy my club and the events of the last week have only strengthened my resolve against this. United already max out their FFP spend on transfers and wages, it’s why in January Wout Weghorst was brought in on loan rather than a purchase of a competent striker. If Qatar owned the club the only way they could increase this – as they have stated they intend – would be to copy the nefarious and criminal methods of the UAE. Whatever success follows, whatever achievements are accomplished could then never feel the same. I don’t want United to play on easy, when they win I want enjoy it fully, I want to walk on air for months afterward like in 99 and 08. It matters that it’s hard, because it was earnt.
Dave, Manchester

Manchester 115ers
Mark MCFC, a couple of retorts if you please:

It is anticipated that it will take the independent commission appointed to investigate the alleged FFP charges 3-4 years to reach their conclusions

No, the PL investigation has been completed. The Independent Commission is not re-investigating the case, they are simply reviewing the investigation to ensure that the PL’s interpretation of the rule breaking was accurate so that they can recommend next actions. Won’t take nearly as long as that even if City do childishly try to remove a KC based on his sporting allegiance and other such delaying tactics.

PL lose their case? They will appeal. City lose their case? They will appeal. Get the point?

Again, no. The teams that have signed up to the rules that enable them to compete in the PL have signed up to the fact that in these instances there’s no appeal process and the Independent Commission’s ruling is final. No CAS with a manipulated selection process for you this time despite the contempt in which your ownership holds the concept of ‘rules’.

And for those that INSIST on moaning about MCFC obfuscating or ‘dragging out’ the legal process…

Man City: We’ve got loads of irrefutable evidence as to why we didn’t break the rules but rather than providing you with this evidence and putting the matter to bed we’re going to refuse to co-operate with the investigation.
James Outram, Wirral

City have become everything they despised
To all the “cry more” City fans in the Mailbox, as a United fan from Manchester than remembers the last time you finished above us before Abu Dhabi: I had to listen to torrents of utter sh*te from blues back in the 90’s and 00’s. “You’ve just bought success”, “plastic club, plastic fans”, “we’re real fans”….. blah blah blah whenever we won a trophy, which happened a lot.

Those of you that were around for Dickov are all now hypocrites and have become absolutely everything you professed to hate and more. More money. More plastic. More synthetic.

You might very well not care, and that’s fine, but worth reminding you.
Lewis, Busby Way

Just champion
“Manchester City winning is notably less of a traffic-driver than success from Manchester United, Liverpool or Arsenal, who are the most popular Premier League clubs in the world by significant margins – Ed”.

Really? Surely the Mailbox was incredibly busy seeing as they all desperately emailed in (on a desperate Saturday night!) desperately telling us how much they didn’t care.

The Arsenal fans don’t care that we won the League, the Liverpool fans don’t care that we won the Champions League, the United fans don’t care that we won the Treble.

Well, chaps, I don’t have a care in the world and I certainly don’t care about you and your whinging. Life is just…..Champion.

The help never stops.
Levenshulme Blue, Manchester 19
PS. Kudos to Fat Man, a generous spirit there and one that others could learn from and I agree, I was well chuffed with West Ham, too.

Saudi Super League
Just to allay Matthew’s (ITFC) fears…
Middle Eastern sports washers are not an homogenous bloc. In simple terms, Newcastle is owned by Saudi Arabia. PSG and Barcelona (and, any day now, possibly Manchester United) are owned by Qatar. Manchester City? That’d be the United Arab Emirates.
They’re very different, and the intra-regional rivalries run very deep indeed.
For example, it made no sense for Qatar (a country half the size of Wales, with fewer football grounds) to host the 2022 World Cup on its own. A few matches should have been played in Dubai, Sharjah, Abu Dhabi and/or Riyadh. The fact that they weren’t – that Qatar insisted on going it alone, at a colossal expense – gives you some idea of the regional dynamics of egos and one-upmanship at play. Qatar was never going to share the limelight with its neighbours.
Similarly, Messi’s Qatari paymasters would not have countenanced him going to play in the Saudi Arabian league. It was never going to happen. That’s why he landed up in MLS instead.
The chances of the UAE allowing Manchester City, or Qatar allowing PSG, to contribute in any way to Saudi prestige through a Saudi-based Super League are next to zero. As are the chances of a happy Middle Eastern Super League where everybody plays together nicely. The Emirs, Sheikhs, Princes and Kings can’t stand each other.
When the Super League happens, it’ll happen in Europe.
Mark, Cape Town

Eric the king
Sorry, but you can’t write an article about best individual seasons in Premier League history and ignore Eric Cantona 1995/6. A summer in which Ferguson broke up his first great Manchester United side by selling Ince, Kanchelskis and Hughes — I remember vividly the outrage in the tabloids and Alan Hansen’s infamous “you don’t win anything with kids”. An iffy opening day of the season gradually gave way, once he returned from his ban, to King Eric carrying a young side full of inexperienced players that had barely even begun its development almost single-handedly to the first English double in a decade.

During this time, they saw off one of the most thrilling teams to ever have graced the Premier League in Keegan’s Newcastle — leading to his spectacular meltdown on the run-in — and I also remember vividly mates laughing at me when I said there was still a long way to go with 15 games left in late January when Newcastle were 12 points clear, had just signed Faustino Asprilla, and some bookies were paying out. At the time, it seemed ludicrous to think they could be caught. People forget, such is the history subsequently written by the class of 92, but this was a raw, potentially brittle side: at various points it looked like they might unravel and Fergie’s experiment might have ended in ignominy.

Others in your article — Bergkamp, De Bruyne, Henry, Salah — were surrounded by experienced elite players, in teams that were well into the advanced stages of the their evolution cycle. Fergie’s second great side won the double in the first season of its development! Even Keane — who also had a stellar season — was only 25 at this point. Cantona’s most important quality was that he gave all of those players around him belief: they visibly grew in stature as the season wound on and they didn’t falter when they could have done.

During those final 15 games, they reeled Newcastle in by winning 13 and only losing one (the infamous grey shirt match at The Dell), with seven of those matches ending 1-0. In most of these, Cantona scored the vital goal, including a 90th minute equaliser in the only other game where they dropped points, against QPR. He did the same, of course, in the FA Cup final against Liverpool, a scrappy, dour game that could have gone the other way.

Pound for pound, this was the greatest individual performance in Premier League history, with Cantona laying the foundation for a dynasty that would succeed him once he retired just a year or so later, and which would likely never have come to fruition without him.
Matt, Sheffield